VLamax: how to measure using submaximal efforts

0:00  okay five o'clock we're live yeah we're live so we have at the moment already some people i guess we wait a little bit before starting right yes let's wait a little bit more for more people to pour in here welcome everyone good afternoon good morning good evening depending on where you are

0:39  welcome welcome mr bill good to see you good to read you

1:01  okay johannes nicola as well good to read you buenos dias in mexico mr mark

1:32  okay so it's quite diverse from the us from central europe from japan yeah naoki alessandro alessandro yeah maybe while we wait um coffee is starting his uh presentation uh a few housekeeping items as always um if you're have been with webinars on with us before you might know that but anyway as always there's going to be a recording um of this which is made available however give us some time please uh it's it will take a little bit until this is available and uh as always we do have q a after it and um but feel also please free to ask

2:45  questions questions questions questions questions questions questions questions however we will address those only after the um after the presentation is over does it work for you coffee yeah yeah absolutely okay yeah absolutely yeah cool yeah cool yeah cool yeah cool and then i think uh the number of additional attendees is not growing that much so maybe yeah i could get started yes you start and i shut up okay

3:18  so thanks sebastian for the housekeeping uh so sebastian will be here as the scientific voice right i will i will be in charge of the presentation mainly okay so he'll be there to perhaps add some some precision when when when it's needed okay so i'm quite happy uh this evening to talk about one of the hottest topic out here uh which is how to measure vmx from sub max efforts and we thought that uh it could be pretty cool to have this focus session uh to dive a little bit deeper into this topic

4:01  uh and to do that so here is the menu we will start with a fresh and brief reminder about vd max and uh coffee sorry to interrupt very quick we don't see your menu you need to switch to presenter mode please

4:23  which is the overview on the left hand side and the the workable one okay can you go anywhere we go to presenter mode so that we can see it full screen

4:37  i thought that was which is strange

4:44  i'm going to say on presenter while you do that i'm going to answer the first question here from salome thanks again uh salam uh sorry uh salem for yeah so as we just mentioned in case you dropped in later um present with the recording will be made available afterwards give us a little bit of time please it will uh take a little bit until we have set uh ready and um yeah but you will get an email notification once this is ready okay okay let's try it like this

5:28  what about now nope yeah stop present yes that's good okay so now let's get started for real okay excellent so how are we going to dive into this uh topic we will start with a fresh and brief reminder about vd max and then directly we will dive into the main challenges associated with the initial and classic method to approximate vd max and the core as well of the presentation will be obviously why and how we can get vd max from uh sub max efforts okay and then please stay with us because we have some

6:12  surprise for you at the end of the presentation and as sebastian already mentioned uh we will take the time for q a at the very end okay so let's get started vd max yeah i think it's still very very important and to to make sure that we are all on the same page and when we talk about vd max we are really talking about maximum rate of leptate production okay and sometimes as i like to call it um you could uh you could see it as the glycolytic brother of of utomax and that's important because

6:57  as most of you already know um the higher your vd max is the higher your power or your speed uh you can produce how your athletes can produce uh but that's not only important for data because with the vo2 max the vd max mainly compose let's say your anaerobic threshold and it means that depending on the type of competition you are doing or your athletes are performing perhaps you are not only interested to have a high vd max okay so you better want to measure it now that being said how do we do that

7:46  that's the one of the key question of the presentation um already uh in the in the 90s uh there was uh an idea about uh approximate uh vd max using this uh equation and as you can see uh you needed to measure a maximum uh blood lactate after the effort and as well uh blood lactate before the effort and then you have as well at the t-test so the duration of the test the duration of the test which is which was 15 seconds a 50 second sprint especially because

8:34  above that duration uh you might uh you might see you might see a drop in ph uh with the acidosis getting more important more present and this uh this uh starts to inhibit the glycolysis and and then consequently reducing the villain max so we want to stay along this line and the last parameter here of this equation is the famous tlac which means here the halactic time interval and specifically to be to to get a little bit more specific

9:18  that's the non-reversible and significant drop in power and uh by especially by 3.5 percent okay the other one we'll get back to that because that's a quite an important aspect of of this method uh when we when we discuss the challenges

9:45  with that let's start with the first ones the first challenges so as you can see on the on this image you have a you have a cyclist um seated on the cycling ergometer so what i want to say here is that initially the method was designed for cycling using an srm ergometer with specific gearing which took it into account gender body composition and as well athlete type so this is a very important uh point already to to to bear in mind if you do not have these um settings and this kind of uh assessment environment so to say then it's already

10:42  it already starts to get complicated other challenges

10:51  perhaps sebastian here you can already chime in to to mention um to discuss a little bit more about the those those changes here which are related to the equation uh i'm not sure if you're still here yeah yeah sorry i just needed to unmute myself yeah so one so the first bullet point here where you say lactate over time um what is important to note here basically what you do you look at the total amount of lactate which has been accumulated and divided by the time so if you think about the lactate production curve right if you

11:35  would plot the time on the x-axis and you would see the glycolytic um the glycolytic power increase and then decrease or like level off so to speak the amount of lactate so to speak is the equivalent of the air of the area below the curve and so what i'm trying to say here is that you can get a certain amount of lactate produced in that time with um you know somewhat different peak lactate production rates and the vlmx should aim to be the peak lactate production rate so mathematically or not but technically

12:13  so to speak um you would have to mention that um this formula is more doing an average lactate production during a 15 second sprint instead of the real or a peak lactate production during the spread the second bullet point states that the lactate production doesn't end immediately at the end of the sprint which is often forgot but if you look at the formula this is what it implies right it is the duration of the test minus this allactic time and as everything in living organisms and therefore also humans there are no like rectangle functions right it's obviously

12:59  not that the anything like also the same goes for vo2 as you know right vo2 kinetics are not direct angle functions not like you start exercising vo2 goes up vertically stays horizontal and then stops and the same is for the glycolytic rate so at the end of the test the glycolytic rate is a glycolysis does not stop at the very same second

13:28  and so that is not represented in this equation and this is one one aspect that makes this equation somewhat inaccurate

13:39  the biggest shortcoming is maybe the third one that if you look at this equation this allactic time

13:52  is kind of implying that the glycolysis starts after a certain time right so the t-test means the duration of the full effort so for example 15 seconds and then the idea is that oh in the beginning you primarily use for example creatine phosphate and therefore you don't use as much glycolysis and therefore there's this electric time but the problem is glycolysis is not related by time right if i would now leave this room and get myself a coffee then it's not that glycolysis kicks in halfway on my way to

14:30  the coffee machine or when i arrive at the coffee machine it's basically not kicking in because the intensity is not high enough and this is the problem that this electric the concept of electric time and i think coffee will get to that when we when he looks at methodology challenges of this again very simplified equation is that it implies that the intensity is always maximum and that is somewhat of a challenge as coffee is going to show okay uh and related to that is the last one uh something that is

15:02  often overlooked especially when people try to apply this concept to other sports like running or swimming or skiing or whatsoever um the beauty of doing it on an ergometer or specifically on an srm ergometer is you is that it's possible to apply certain settings to the ergometer to hopefully enable the athlete to reach peak power and besides it's kind of well self-explanatory that you want the highest peak power in an all-out sprint it is also that um the breakdown of creating phosphate in the beginning of the sprint

15:45  so the more power you put out or the athlete puts out the more creating phosphate is going to be uh used so breakdown of creating phosphate introduces uh an increase in ph values that's what is called metabolic alkalosis and you could understand it in a way there's this increase in ph acts actually as a buffer so let's say intramuscular ph levels is 7.1 and then this would be to paint your picture two seconds into the sprint intramuscular ph might be 7.2 so it might be slightly increased and therefore you have this so

16:27  to speak extra buffer which then enables you to really activate glycolysis because as coffee already said a drop in ph level inhibits glycolysis so if you can start with a higher ph basically because the ergometer setting was all good if you can start with a higher ph value because of the breakdown of creatine phosphate because the ergometer was set up in a way that the athlete can reach high peak power then you start at a higher ph so to speak and therefore you can reach higher uh glycolytic rates which obviously is what you

17:04  would need to get a real vlmx so yeah this is on those four ones here coffee you want to take over again yeah yeah yeah thanks uh thanks very much sabastien let's move forward and you already start to to mention a little bit about this aspect as well but uh if we go back to to i like the time that's uh important to bear in mind that this is a this is something which change as well with the the time to reach peak power if in if we if we consider two two two athlete types uh let's say a sprinter type so it will it will

17:51  obviously uh reach peak power uh quite earlier especially if we compare that to an endurance type of athlete and this will have an impact on on uh on the uh on the on the all equation because having earlier time to reach power will uh shorten the alactic time because here you will have a bigger delta and this will lead to a lower calculated vlmx and it will be actually the contrary for an endurance type of athlete because the electric time will be longer so this will lead to a lower delta and then a higher calculated vlmx

18:39  so when we start to consider um athlete types in regard to this equation then we we we start to to figure out that things can be quite complicated

18:57  so that's one another another aspect to to bear in mind and another one as well which is i hopefully quite clear is this example with the same athlete using different gearing so as you can see at the on the first graph the upper first graph you see a clear drops in power on the green curve okay and this would define the electric time at the moment where power drops here significantly significantly as we said and this was done with this was performed with a specific gearing and then changing the gearing you can see on the lower graph the green curve

19:52  again and you can see the drop in power occurring much later much after and this actually actually lengthen the electric time so that's another important aspect here to consider the gearing

20:15  might mess up as well the the electric time and this will have an impact on the calculated vlmx so if you want if you want if you want to have a deeper dive into these uh uh topics we have uh we have on the on our e-college and some some some courses that would help you to to understand that a little bit deeper because we are just giving you now uh an overview so that's that's a little bit of the the overall idea uh so now that being said uh if we uh take into consideration these challenges what do we do either

21:05  we want to continue with the same method or we want perhaps to consider another one and here a suggestion for you which is considering the sub-maximum efforts of the method to calculate vlmx and the high from a high perspective high perspective point of view before sebastian dive a little bit deeper into the more technical details that's feasible because there is a very close or tight relationship between the maximum rate of factor production and the like the lecture production rate at uh in sub-maximum intensities

21:56  and with that sebastian you can take over to dive a little bit deeper regarding for the explanation yeah so that is going to be a little bit um well so bear with me is going to be a little bit technical uh here um however the the ironic part of it is that anybody of you who measures lactate um is basically using this concept every time you measure lactate because this is how that's partly or you could argue this is a little bit how a lactate analyzer works so what you see on the left hand graph here um is well first year

22:38  uh that's a uh that's a uh that's a flux rate the direction speed of any enzyme driven reaction uh right like holocaust is i don't know approximately eight enzymes or something um so that's the uh that's the flux rate the direction speed of any enzyme driven reaction reaction is that's the the function of any enzyme driven reaction is determined by the maximum reaction speed um in enzyme kinetics where this comes from um the maximum reaction speed is called v max which is where the term blamx comes

23:22  from so the writing with a dot on top of it little side note here is is not correct but the v that's a capital v basically comes from the commonly used um enzyme kinetics formula where v max describes the maximum reaction speed and this is what you see on the y-axis here on the left graph and on the x-axis you see some kind of trigger a normal enzymes reactions as a substrate concentration again going back to the sprint text example it's not time right um so whatever you could ask so

23:59  basically how to understand that is whatever drives whatever triggers in our case a glycolysis to be activated okay uh at a certain drive of a certain amount of trigger right for example substrate concentrations the substrate could be uh fructose one six b phosphate for example drives glycolysis so you could put this um the concentration of fructose uh one six b five phosphate on the x-axis here and then basically what the graph is tells you is that if you would say this is two athletes here the athlete

24:36  with the higher glycolytic enzyme concentration is a blue one and the athlete with the lower enzymatic enzyme concentration or enzyme concentration is a green one and what it tells you is that the guy with the higher maximum enzymatic activity or concentration has the higher reaction speed has the higher flux rates the higher production speed in our case of lactate or glycolytic turnover at any sub-maximum condition right you can see that always the blue graph is higher than the green graph and again this is basic knowledge and that is not directly but partly as as um as um a lactate meter

25:23  works right i mean based on enzyme kinetics so so to speak um and the less technically less biochemical relation here you can see on the right hand graph and that's also where the the the reference here below from wackerhage et al is is is um is is useful what you see here on the right hand side is actually lactate concentration as a function of power output so normal lactate profile curve and the interesting piece here is that these there's this real data from a step test and these two athletes are about the

25:59  same body weight by i don't know one kilogram so 1.5 so you could really neglect it you know when it comes to interpreting lactate curves and the other interesting piece is that they have the same vo2 max so as coffee is going to show obviously vo2 max or yeah oxygen uptake is what your you need to combust lactate so the aerobic power so to speak is to say or the aerobic capacity power would be more precise whatever we will call it is the same by i think 50 milliliters or something it was the same and you can see that the

26:34  athlete with the higher vlmx has the left shift of the lactate profile curve or the lactate concentration curve which is again what you see in this paper cited here from 2022 and so this kind of fits to this biochemistry biochemical explanation right so if you have a guy with a higher vlmx based on enzyme kinetics again first year biochemistry so it's not nothing fancy that we just made up here um the guy with a higher maximum reaction speed and therefore likely higher enzyme concentration and you could argue

27:10  whatever more fast-fetch fibers and so on and so forth will produce more lactate at every single power output at every single intensity and because they have the same lactate combustion capacity simplified speaking by having the same vo2 max this results in a higher concentration and this is basically what causes a left shift here and again so this is kind of the let's say non-biochemical non-theoretical proof that you can see in everyday performance diagnostics work so to speak when we have and you have an example like this where you can

27:51  directly compare two athletes who have in almost all aspects the same numbers except for vlmx so i hope that this helps to understand or hopefully gives you the explanation why a higher vlmx means higher lactate concentration and everything else that comes from it like higher carbide combustion and we could go on right so yeah thanks um and on this one we wanted to show you how uh small the bias and the standard deviation is when when you want to determine um vlmx using a three sub max efforts of of six minutes and i

28:42  think sebastian it was a simulation correct no so this is uh no so this is basically um yeah we use edge cases right so we use the most extreme cases you could you could imagine so super low uh view or relatively low vlmx very high vlmx so almost cases you it's very basically almost impossible to find you could argue in in real world conditions i mean 30 and 0.2 maybe yes 30 and 1.0 i mean yeah anyway so we use these edge cases and we use a device error so the error of the measurements okay and so we

29:22  apply fluctuations right so we say this is a lactate curve of for example somebody with a v02 max of 30 and to vlmx of 0.2 and now if you and this is basically i think 500 different error scenarios so if you have 500 different distributed errors in power output and in in lactate measured and what would be the accuracy of your of your vlmx that you get from sub maximum efforts and this is what you see here

29:55  excellent thanks again for these details uh let's move forward um and here try to highlight it as well uh in a case regarding reliability of measurements for vlmx so it was a case with two groups of of 16 participants and as you can see when they are tested twice you can see that there is a very non-significant small variation of of the value of vlmx which help us to understand that it's quite reliable okay now let's be more a little bit more concrete here as you can see

30:49  that's a one of the let's say typical protocol that we suggest to get vlmx from sub max efforts so you can see that it the overall view looks pretty much like a step test even if instead of instead of that you have some recovery period in between the steps okay and that you have as well all out because what you get from this protocol is not only vlmx but other metrics as well such as vlmx and and another visual for example to name a few uh so what you need to bear in mind here is that the minimum are three steps and you

31:35  want as well your athletes to elicit a maximum lactate concentration of of 2.5 after after the effort and because you are going to modify the intensity you are going to increase the intensity if you follow this specific order then the the electric concentration is going to change and as a recommendation this is what we usually recommend so 0.4 between 0.4 and 0.7 for for cycling or watt per kilo and between 0.4 at 0.65 meter per second for running hopefully this starts as well to clarify the more concrete or practical view of of the topic

32:25  now once you do that you are in the you are ready you have your data of your of your protocol and you want to upload that into the software bear in mind that you are not left alone you are not left into the wide okay therefore i wanted to put here a small reminder you can always use the wisdom of yoda master so long story short in the app you have the possibility to check the quality of your word data and this is something which is really really important

33:07  so to try to make it simple here on the left graph what you see are generic lactate curves before optimization right so the colors illustrate the different intensity intensities here in cycling and the dots are the peak of lactate concentrations that you measured in post effort okay and on the right hand side on the right graph what you can see is the optimization so it means that the algorithm understand now or this decipher the lactate production and combustion behind the lactate concentration

34:02  and again long story short the closer your dots are from the lines the better it is the better it is so bear in mind you have that possibility to check your raw data you are not slave here you are still responsible of the data that you put in very very important speaking about accuracy speaking about speaking about um speaking about fitting sebastian you wanted to add something perhaps yeah if you can go back one slide um because while you were presenting i was answering some of the

34:51  the questions here in the chat and um i would like to go back to those and um

35:03  to to to answer um a few things that came up in the question and i think that always come up right so we had a question for example if if the lactate shuttle uh theory or the lactate shuttle itself is not kind of like you know throwing off this um some of the concepts here and there's some other things that are always um like you know often overlooked so what coffee showed here in this graph then when we when we recalculate that's basically what you see here right recalculating lactate concentration and you can see how accurate

35:37  in the right picture you can see how accurate or not accurate it is to to recalculate the measured lactate concentration what is included here so what this respects it is related to the body composition of the athlete right so this is this is very very often overlooked we speak about lactate and we very quick speak about talk about formula more three millimoles but it's not millimoles it's millimoles per liter so the lactate dilutes in water and so the and therefore you need to have the body composition

36:14  here to make an accurate um um you know calculation you have to know the lactate dilution space and i could have some could share some some fun anecdotes here where you had people with uh more water than expected and then the fitting is off and so on and so forth a little bit um so when you fix the body composition here the lactate concentration that you measured if you leave out the body composition and say okay this is checked right then the lactate concentration that you measure is a result of the

36:45  lactate production right i mean the stuff has to come has to come from somewhere and the lactate combustion which includes to answer this question again which includes something like a lactate shuttle because in the combustion it doesn't really matter if the lactate is directly transported into the mitochondria it first goes by our pyruvate right um for the total combustion rate it doesn't really matter so to speak what how the transport looks like here so this is taken into account so to make this very clear it's not that we sit here and say yeah we can use lactate concentration and this is the same

37:23  as lactate production right no um the concentration is the result of the production and the combustion and together with the body composition this is all taken into account when this processing of the data happens okay so anybody who thinks like yeah but that's you know cannot work because there's oxygen uptake and there's combustion and therefore you know it's it's all not that easy it is it is you know that is actually baked in here so just to make this clear and to to go back to these questions here about the

37:55  lactate shuttle yeah and so then coffee if you want to move to the next slide you said you have to have a little bit of a spoiler alert um yeah so the so this fitting graph a coffee yeah so the sitting graph that you have seen is is only part of the story uh what what we are working on and what you will see soon here and myself being a little bit nerdy maybe i'm very excited about that you will see an accuracy in a check of the accuracy of your results taking into account the error of measurement so let

38:32  me explain this graph first okay so in this example that coffee showed in the cycling test it could also be a speed test using gps or swimming or ski ergometers or whatever right um you have obviously an error of measurement in your devices right obviously a power meter is two three four percent off whatsoever and the lactate meter is off right and so there's an error in your measurement and what we did is we searched the literature for all validation and accuracy checks of all the devices all handheld lactate meters vo2 analyzers power meters so on and so forth and there is a

39:18  standard error right so there is like a standard error whatever of just to make an example of two percent let's say in a power meter right and this is what you see here on the x-axis right error in your power speed measurement and then there's a standard error in the lactate meters that you use depending on which lactate meter it is right let's say just making this up now 0.4 millimoles okay would be an error of one and so what's going to happen what we're working on as you can see in this graph you're pretty far with

39:50  that is whenever you process test data with inside

39:57  we are going to apply this error from your measurement devices different errors the normal error right the standard error that you can find and as you can see also half the error which would be 0.5 on the x's or double the error that would be 2.0 and then check how much does this effect the outcome the result of the vlmx that you will get okay because the question so to speak that you that we ought to answer with that is okay you get the vlmx as a result that makes this up of 0.5 right what is the range what range can you

40:39  expect is it 0.5 it is is this plus minus 005 which is what you find as a reliability in the literature right so can it be 0.45 then or 0.55 or is it you know how accurate is it basically and this is what this graph tells you so in this graph here in this example you can see that this is standard error of one so your standard error on power and your standard error and lactate right the vlmx result that you get is has an accuracy lower or a variation in their variance in their lower than 0.05 which is the best

41:19  what you could expect basically okay yes this is where coffee is showing okay and then you can see oh but if my error is higher right how much error would i expect this is in the yellow and the red one and the idea here there's also going to be a dump down a simplified version of that where we just show red green and yellow but the idea really is to be able to show and prove before you accept the result before you say yeah this is a test i want to add to my database that you know

41:55  exactly and you can be confident that you know how accurate the data is so you can either accept or decline it and why i'm somewhat fired up about it is because i think there's no such thing out there yet where even when you do a normal lactate profile test right if you just make a normal lactate profile curve um the error of the measurement is not really considered right and i think therefore it's it's it's it's a really good add-on to be able to understand the the the the error of your

42:26  devices and what this does actually to your results right because of course there's a view to analyze everything there's an error so let's look at that so that's this one um

42:40  we already presented it to some of you and and so on and so forth and we're going to test it yeah and then the next one which maybe is even more exciting for most of you is um you might say okay well this looks like exactly what is new about this one this looks exactly like the current protocol no it's not what you see here is a step test um so we are currently working so we already have the mass for that we are just running validation studies with some external partners because as you know nothing

43:13  goes live without at least internal but in best case also external validation we are working on a step test protocol where you can basically use somewhat of a conventional step test which is maybe slightly modified um so you go up to approximately let's say threshold a little bit above threshold and then stop the test and then just do one all out effort and as you can see with the number of blood drops here it will require significant amount less significant less lactate samples um and because you don't have the recovery

43:51  periods in between the effort is also significant faster we already did this um about two weeks ago with the u.s triathlon national team and we went down to like 20 minutes for a bike test and like 35 minutes for swim test but this was because we also used vo2 measurements here um so that's something we are pretty excited about and again um the mass is there we are running the validations and if all goes well then it's not going to take too long until you're going to see that obviously in combination this is accuracy check so

44:27  that you can be aware of of um you can be aware of the accuracy and you can be you can be certain how good your results are so yeah that's a little bit the outlook uh what we are working on so still keeping busy um and i think i don't know coffee if you have another slide or do you want to no no i think we can uh those are really massive improvements and hopefully what we presented uh really clarify a little bit the all the whole topic and now this is time for for q a guys for both of you

45:03  yeah i had the time or coffee to already read a few questions here but before we jump to that um please bring in more questions right you see the chat here as i said i answered a few along the way but it's it's it's it's very cool to ask more questions uh so bring it up type more questions while we start answering okay uh

45:27  excellent excellent i cannot see yet the questions because i'm still in ah okay okay okay yeah so let me answer that so i'm going to start from the top here um this is the open one um hannes burger asking um um couldn't it be that when i reach the power peak earlier in the sprint test so going back to the sprint test methodology that the overall lactate at the end is also slightly higher resulting in the same calculated vlmx well it could it depends on why you reach uh why you reach peak power earlier

45:59  the problem is that um well the idea of the sprinters is you need to set up the ergometer that that that enables the athlete to reach peak power and if you think about it if you reach peak power too early then beyond that time point when you reach peak power um you maybe run out of gears um or you maybe could have so to speak you could have reached there are a lot of publications about it in in the track sprint and track cycling by the way you could have reached higher power if you would have a different

46:37  gear right because the peak power is a function of the of the cadence also uh that could be one scenario the other scenario is that you reach peak power very late as coffee showed and then the absolute power is lower just because it comes so late that you don't have the same force you're basically simplified speaking you're already fatigued right um does it result in a higher vlmx normally not because when you again when you reach peak power earlier the allactic time becomes shorter and therefore the

47:11  denominator is bigger so let's say you divide 10 millimoles by either 12 seconds or by by by by 14 or 10 seconds then the vlmx gets um gets calculated uh lower because you divided by a longer time duration right um good question here from the rog madieu um the impact of supplements on vlmx outcome for instance bicarbonate creatine beta alanine uh great question uh beta alan uh creatine has been explored there's not really a difference uh bicarbonate i would not expect that because bicarbonate primarily works on a

47:52  blood level right in terms of buffering and uh in at least in a 15 seconds friends it would be too short and um beta alanine could be in uh could could have an effect um in the um in the sprint test because it works on a muscular level and therefore could work could do that coffee can you go back one slide here for me really quick to the previous protocol yeah um to paint you yes thank you no no no there's the one with the new protocol yeah to paint you the full picture here this is a big benefit of doing it in

48:28  submax efforts if you read here the protocol that is dealing with lactate concentrations primarily below 3.5 so very low lactate where ph is relatively stable and therefore there's no effect of buffering capacity um so the big benefit of this one um and i can say that because we are looking at buffering capacity when we calculate these uh when we calculate vlmx the big benefit of this one is if you if you calculate vlmx at the lower intensities with lower lactate concentration these impacts of increased buffering capacity beta alanine um does do not do anything so they don't affect the results

49:12  uh um lt1 what's about lt1 yes uh um i don't want to give you a timeline um but it should be relatively soon um but now i'm giving a timeline i would say by the end of the year uh most definitely and it could be one of the most earlier things so it could be earlier than this protocol and it could be earlier than the accuracy check actually then when you've been that you see lt1 brian to answer this question um excellent question here for matt mcnamara what's the reasonable interval to test retest to see changes

49:55  uh difficult um you can for example do a very high calorie restricted diet and jump on a ketogenic diet so ketogenic diet is not sufficient calorie intake and you will see a drop in vlmx within two weeks you can do a lot of sprint training uh that's like normal diet or not changing the diet and you can see a difference in vlmx within six weeks and you cannot change a lot about your training and then you will not see any change in vlmx so i would i would start out with the recommendation of testing every three

50:35  months approximately that's normally fits the best for most people and if you change something that is significant like come some kind of sprint training or diet or something then maybe you want to test already after uh one and a half two months uh vincent considering two athletes with the same view to max doing the same step test but with a different vlmx will you observe a different slope of the lactate curve was a slope similar is just a different inflection point well that's coffee i don't know if you want to go back here it's quite some slides back but that's exactly what we showed right

51:12  um so yeah do you yeah this is no i think it's one or two back uh the step test of athlete one and athlete two um this one right yes this one so um i don't know you tell me if if you would see the slope is much different i would argue that at least with my bare eye i could not see so much of a different slope here interestingly by the way i'm yeah so no um i don't know you judge yourself if you see a different

51:47  slope here between athlete one and athlete two um i don't uh ah yes excellent question from nicola cadici here why is it in the ppd test so where we do a sprint why should it there be longer than 80 18 seconds loves this question because i've seen people copying now 20 seconds for vlmx test with lactate um excellent question the reason is very simple coffee was totally right when he said that and that's also proven the literature right um i mean that's where i got it from right i so when i developed

52:32  this vlmx test protocols a sprint a 15 second sprint in 2002 um it was not that i was standing under the shower and said oh let's do 15 seconds right like there's literature that shows that um approximately at that time range of 15 seconds uh glycolytic flux starts to decrease or is plateauing at least so why does the ppd have 18 seconds or even 20 or 25 the reason is very simple it's because you don't measure lactate um but the algorithm is calculating your vlmx at every second right so you upload power

53:08  data recorded in a second by second so one hertz um recording and then what it does it calculates the vlmx for every second and what it tries what we try to look for is that this calculated vlmx either plateaus or decreases because only then we can be sure that you really got the vlmx right because remember the ppd one because it's not using this sorry for my wording lousy super simplified formula with delta lactate and delta time um the ppd looks for the peak vlmx in this sprint and only if the sprint is longer we can see a plateauing or a

53:54  decrease of the lactate production rate and therefore can be certain that you really got vlmx and um what i wanted to say is the difference to the to the one with lactate is you can do it in any gearing you want right because it again it doesn't have this formula it doesn't deal with electric time so it's it's it's somewhat independent of the gearing and and therefore it's important that it's a little bit longer to actually be able to see a decline or plateauing in vlmx to be sure that you

54:25  really got a real vlmx so that's a quality assurance thing

54:34  uh brian is asking for the submaximum protocol do the rest periods change based on athletes phenotype for example high quality athletes require more rest yeah so um so we do currently with the current protocol we recommend that the lactate concentration should drop below 3.5 yes here and higher glycolytic less aerobic fit athletes will take more time in this passive recovery yes

55:02  okay giving a second try for harness let me read this one uh you showed that in higher gear peak power is reached later and said that that could be a problem for pnmx calculation due to the different delta right my question is whether you have data that shows that actually results in a random vlmx calculation or whether that cancels out ah okay now i understand so hannah's question is if the gearing is different um is the difference it does in electric time because the peak comes earlier later is that

55:38  canceled out by different lactate concentrations great question no it's not it's not i think there's actually one publication that shows that and we did a study last year it's just not published yet but it's on our website if you go to our website um and you go to the validation or research pages you will see current research project and there is one where we on purpose and we're going to see what we're going to do is we're going to do a study of the ! so we're going to do a study of the data that we're going to do a study of the data

56:10  and we're going to do a study of the data that we're going to do a study of the data and we're going to do a study of the data that we're going to do a study of the data and we're going to do a study of the data that we're going to do a study of the data and we're going to do a study of the data that we're going to do a study of the data and we're going to do a study of the data that we're going to do a study of the data

56:20  and we're going to do a study of the data that we're going to do a study of the data and we're going to do a study of the data that we're going to do a study of the data and we're going to do a study of the data that we're going to do a study of the data and we're going to do a study of the data that we're going to do a study of the data and we're going to do a study of the data that we're going to do a study of the data

56:33  and we're going to do a study of the data that we're going to do a study of the data and we're going to do a study of the data that we're going to do a study of the data and we're going to do a study of the data that we're going to do a study of the data data that we're going to do a study of the data that we're going to do a study of the data data that we're going to do a study of the data

56:43  data that we're going to do a study of the data data that we're going to do a study of data that we're going to do a study of data data that we're going to do a study of data data that we're going to do a study of data data that we're going to do a study of data data that we're going to do a study of data data that we're going to do a study of data data that we're going to do a study of data data that we're going to do a study of data

57:04  data that we're going to do a study of data data that we're going to do a study of data data that we're going to do a study of data data that we're going to do a study of data data that we're going to do a study of data constraint and oh you know it works or doesn't work right people complain oh it's not reliable and other father is it reliable it depends on you know who you test and how you test it but this is exactly the problem like so basically if you think about it

57:30  well you could put it this way you could have maybe just a thought experiment so to go into rabbit hole imagine hannes imagine you would have an ergometer that changes the load during the test so that the power output would almost be constant so so i'm trying to say instead of reaching 1200 watts and having average 800 imagine the ergometer would keep you constant at 800 watts for 15 seconds just to make up a number in this case there's no electric time there's no peak but of course you would still produce a lot of lactate

58:06  right and this is what we meet with we mean this is entirely difficult or i like to say flawed concept

58:20  uh nagi is asking is it if it's possible to get an almost good vlmx about different type of field test like the difference in percentage between one three five and twenty minutes test usually the five to twenty minutes test different is twenty percent if bigger lower um well the short answer is if you want a real vlmx is no if you want to know if somebody is more 0.3 or 0.9 so if you really want to understand black and white so really binary yes of course but then i think for this you

58:56  don't need any test you just need to look at maybe the peak power uh just from the differences especially of the durations that you mentioned it's all too much aerobic contribution um and it's all too much related to buffering capacity for example especially in the three and five minute efforts um so that's not really good there are a few efforts to try to get a vlmx but by looking at the relationship between vo2 max and how much percentage of that you can use at threshold um it's something that i looked at in my thesis for example in 2003 the problem is

59:36  it correlates so statistically there's a correlation between your vlmx and how much you can utilize your vo2 max at threshold at max lactate steady state but the r square value is approximately 0.73 which means that you have you need to expect somewhat close to 30 percent of inaccuracy so you can say my vlmx is 0.5 but it might be 0.7 or it might be 0.435 or something so not well not at least for our standard something that you could work you remain doing

1:00:14  ryan the submaximal vlmx testing show up in pbd testing pros that don't use lactate samples um i'm not sure if i understand the question correct so submaximal vlmx testing will always require uh lactate so it's either all out no lactate or it is lactate and then you don't have to go all out of the uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh

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