The "No Lactate Curve" - Lactate Testing

0:00  where you are welcome to today's webinar uh if you could give me a quick feedback here in the chat if you can hear me loud and clear if the sound is good if there's any sound problems if you can see my screen my camera that would be much appreciated so that we can make sure before we start that everybody can hear me great five out of five okay perfect i hope it stays that guy this way awesome uh at thanks for joining hello to canada i am deeply sorry i needed to send you an email at

0:40  thanks very much for your card it arrived late but it arrived um and i'm terribly sorry i had it on my to do several times to answer you um sorry for that much much appreciated it was a nice surprise thanks for your card um everybody else we have more people dropping in so um let me give it a little bit more time here um to give the chance for more people to to to join while that is happening let me give you some housekeeping items um so i was surprised to see that it was scheduled for one and a half

1:20  hours it's not going to take that long um we will have like 40 maybe 45 minutes ish presentation and then of course as as always um time for questions obviously okay so more people are dropping in uh that's good i will give it like one more minute and then we can start oh and then um so it is recorded i see that's good so webinar is recorded and you will be able to access the recording shortly afterwards um okay let's give it let's say 30 more seconds um you know people joining us leveling off and then we can start

2:09  recording um okay if i turn my head um that's because i'm working with two screens i need to turn my head to to see your comments um sorry for that i will now concentrate on the presentation about today's webinar the no lactate curve lactate testing and of course i'm going to start first with the conventional lactate testing and in order to do that i went here to my into to the closet here so to speak and pulled out all papers i hope you can see that right all papers if you can't see

2:48  that i have it actually here on on my on my presentation so pulled out all papers from my friend professor madder um when he started doing lactate testing and the point why i pulled this out is not only because there's something still to learn from it also because the uh the first publication about this is pretty much um exactly 50 years ago so what i'm trying to say here is that lactate profile testing dates back about 50 years in terms of this methodology to step by step increase the load intensity in terms of

3:32  running speed or cycling power output or whatever wait a few minutes on each load increment um obviously there's a lot of discussion how many minutes you should wait measure the lactate and then inject so to speak the next load into into the um into the subject so to speak okay and measure the lactate again and then you get some curves which look like this which i assume obviously everybody knows and i brought this image well just again to showcase how old this is not saying that it's bad i mean you know gravity is also

4:09  have been around for some long time and it's still valid um and also brought this to show that a lot of the stuff of the stuff of that happened in germany uh and a lot of stuff especially original stuff for example around four millimole threshold was published in german and hence you know some of the information got lost when translated into into you know the english literature and exported internationally so to speak okay so what happens then if you look back a little bit historically is that especially in the 80s 1980s of the

4:47  last century tons of different threshold concept and protocols um were presented and were you know researched on so the original one from alois mater was running on a softly cushioned treadmill um softly you know a a little bit a little bit cushioning uh five minute steps 0.5 meters per second increments like you see here on the x-axis on on on my screen okay uh 30 seconds rest in between uh to capture the lactate and then there comes the next step and you of course you can do everything else you can do it on rowing

5:21  cycling so on and so forth and all these different protocols and especially the let's say critics on a fixed formula for minimal threshold led to all different kinds of threshold concepts and i brought you this paper here from yum nick and others um just showcasing some not even all of the different threshold concepts that one can apply to a um you know to a lactate curve and frankly what it is if you look at all the different kind of threshold concepts and protocols it reminds me always a

6:02  little bit like my house will look like when i go back home tonight and my little ones would have messed everything up because that's pretty much often what it is right what i'm trying to say is that you cannot go to two different places to do a lactate profile test and find the same protocol protocol and the same methodology how to assess how to evaluate this protocol and in most cases unfortunately and i don't want to throw any anybody under the bus here but in most cases unfortunately

6:36  it's not only that not two labs cannot agree on the same protocol it's also that the methodology used to approximate a maximum lactate steady state slash anaerobic threshold is not fitted to the protocol okay so what do i mean with that especially especially the step duration also the sport type and increments and others but especially the step duration tremendously changes the lactate concentration curve and therefore it changes whatever concept whatever methodology you use to try to approximate a maximum lactate steady state or anaerobic threshold value and often that is not really fitting together so i've seen people using formula

7:29  moles in a three-minute cycling test however it's only validated in the five-minute running test and vice versa so that's what i mean with it's a mess it's a mess and this you know mismatch and often missing knowledge about which threshold concept actually can work which what kind of protocol um that's really really downside of uh like the testing and again i don't want to throw anyone under the bus here but for example last year we asked people to send in whatever step test results they do have and it's quite

8:08  hilarious i would say what kind of threshold protocols or lactate testing protocols you see no offense i've seen just lately virtual cycling teams changing the step duration during the test i've seen elite federations olympic federation allowing the athletes to adjust the intensity during a step so not even a constant load speed during a step so all over the place okay so that's one thing that i thought i opened this just to acknowledge that's not don't get me wrong you're not here to hear me um you know mooring about um the the the the methodology that's not for here for today but i'm

9:01  just wanted to start with showing a little bit what is the status quo okay so protocols and the way to assess this is one problem about lactate profile curves i'm come i'm going to come to the bigger problems in a second okay so one thing one other thing that is overlooked so one thing again protocols different protocols different methodologies not really a match most people don't really you know know from all the different from all the mess know which protocol to combine with this match with methodology the

9:32  other thing that's often overlooked is body composition so when we measure lactate we talk about lactate in millimoles four millimoles three millimoles ten millimoles blah blah blah blah but at the end it's actually millimoles per liter and so per liter is really really um overlooked it's really overlooked you know people don't take this into account it's kind of crazy because mathematically it's a simple division it is as what's per kilogram so what's divided by kilogram or milliliters of oxygen divided by kilogram so it's the same mathematic operations and when you talk to someone about what's per kilogram

10:12  or vo2 max per kilogram you will easily end up in the discussion about okay how many kilograms are there when you measure lactate no one normally no offense again i'm steering the pot here a little bit nobody's ever asking you oh but how many liters have been there okay and so that is an issue because different body composition changes the lactate concentration for example these nice lactate profile curves here most of them for millimoles for example have been only validated in terms of comparing to maximum lactate steady state in gold standard constant load test using men males not females okay uh and for

10:52  example you can look at triathletes maybe biking up over the winter most swim training gym training changes the body composition might change but here's an example it's a little bit simplified okay so you have it coming from a science background you will see i simplified things a little bit but you know the story and the problem is well explained anyway okay so let's bear with me let let me walk you through some numbers here okay let's imagine you have an athlete of 70 kilograms and let's imagine the

11:22  athlete has 15 percent body fat and approximately 60 percent 40 percent muscle mass and approximately 65 percent water if you know adding up the numbers and say hey why is he coming up with 120 this is because muscle mass is depending on mitochondria density approximately 75 to 80 percent water so let's assume you have this kind of pretty average could be a recreational amateur athlete body composition okay and again well a little bit simplified let's assume out of that muscle mass out of the 40 percent which is 28 kilograms

11:58  um he uses 18 kilograms in cycling lower length okay so approximately what you would assume giving how much muscle mass sits in the legs for somebody who has trained specifically for cycling could be around 18 kilograms okay just as an example and literature tells us that the lactate dilution space so the space that can take up lactate is a function of the body water content which makes sense because lactate dilutes in water okay so with 65 percent water that's approximately 33 liters okay now let we let exercises athlete and let's

12:35  say we exercise for five minutes and again simplifying things i'll leave leave out the oxidation and stuff we will come to that let's assume one kilogram of muscle accumulates 1.5 millimoles lactate per minute now let's do the mass we do five minutes 1.5 millimoles per kilogram muscle mass and we have 18 kilograms muscle mass that would be a total of 132 millimoles not millimoles per liter of lactate now we divide this 132 millimoles of lactate by 33 liters of water space or dilution space and you end up measuring a

13:12  concentration of 4.1 millimoles per liter this is again a little bit simplified how you measure actually how the lactate concentration that you measure you know ends up on your machine it's producing the muscle it's oxidizing the muscle so on and so forth it comes it dilutes into the different body compartments also the blood this is where you measure okay now let's assume we gain two kilograms of muscle mass upper body we go to the gym it's winter time biking up whatever okay and therefore i lose a little bit of

13:47  body fat i gain upper muscle mass i lose lean body mass my water space goes up as again as an example to 36 liters now let's assume my training status however did not change okay for the same exercise i still have the same metabolic physiological makeup in terms of performance and therefore i still produce 1.5 millimoles of lactate per minute at the same intensity during the same mass five minutes 1.5 18 kilograms i end up again with 132 millimoles of lactate but now this 132 millimoles dilute in 36 liter

14:23  of water and therefore my concentration is lower 3.7 and so what happens in a classical interpretation is my lactate curve shifts to the right and i say wow performance increased what a great training i did upper body strength in the gym and my cycling performance increased because my lactate curve shifts to the right it didn't it is just water so that's another thing again i'm just leading up a little bit of the problems that are overlooked beside protocols and methodologies for mlss body composition is something overlooked that's not still not the main thing my main concern about lactate profile test lactate curves is

15:09  how the data is used if you go to an llm like chat gbt and ask uh what does the shift of a lactate profile curve for example the ones that are just described just because of body water um um

15:28  if you ask that question the general impression i remember please remember something that chat gbt is trained on the internet with them um the right shift of the lactate curve is usually interpreted as for example enhanced mitochondrial function better lactate clearance greater aerobic efficiency whatever that means okay so it's generally viewed as a better um you know endurance performance okay and that is a little bit of a simplification and that brings me to what we can actually do with lactate testing and what we cannot do with like or should maybe re-sync doing this lactate testing okay i go one more time back to

16:13  one of the old graphs of my friend professor mada and i made it a little bit clearer so that's another one i pulled out of my closet here which i find very interesting um so this is elite uh runners um national level runners in germany back in the 70s of the last century and you can see i put it in colors on there it is lactate curves of 100 meter runners 400 meters 800 1500 and marathon and of course you would argue would say oh of course the 100 meter lactate curve guy is shifted to the

16:53  left and compared for example to the 1500 meters of the marathon and you could argue of course 100 meter has much less aerobic endurance aerobic capacity whatever you want to call that endurance capacity whatever that means then the 1500 meter runners or the marathon runner and therefore the curve is shifted to the left so in that case this explanation you find in general on the internet would still hold true right but if you compare 800 meters 1500 meters to marathon it becomes a little bit more difficult to hold this argument because the aerobic capacity of a 1500 meter runners and an 800

17:36  meter runner it's not that vastly different likely and it's not that much different to a marathon runner actually you know we know for example from ironman triathletes that you know they're not necessarily have the highest view to max values for example compared to olympic distance or whatever okay i'm not going to argue about non-realistic values here um so for example if you look to other um publications you can see that like i just explained in terms of just of the aerobic capacity

18:10  a 1500 meter 800 meter runner is not necessarily so much different to a marathon runner so the positions a shift of the lactate curve cannot be explained only because of better mitochondrial function or more oxidative capacity because vo2 max is z1 measure of oxidative capacity and you can see that's not vastly different and not being able to explain for example the difference from 800 meter to marathon which is drastic right i mean that's a lot so there's something else going on there's something else going on and

18:47  that's something else beside for example the body composition and of course using the same protocol the something else for example is that the concentration of the lactate that you measure is not only a result or not only influenced by the oxidative capacity but it's also influenced by the lactate production i mean the stuff has to come from somewhere right so it has to be produced so let's put all of that let's say sports science historical knowledge to the side let's try sorry to bother you with that for 15 minutes um let's let's keep this aside and let's focus on what we really know

19:31  in terms of you know from a biochemistry point of view from a molecular point of view okay and there's the good thing about lactate is there has been tons of research since 1976 who would have guessed that okay so there's a lot more new knowledge i mean 1976 people would still tell you like that is a waste product that it only is produced in anaerobic conditions and so on and so forth today we know much better okay so one thing that we know much better and i brought you this from a publication i'm sorry i think i forgot to put the reference on this one

20:07  i have it on all the others my apologies for this one so you see here you have glycolysis where glucose is turned into pyruvate and then this is why you know ldh used to produce lactate and then this lactate enters these membranes and you have all these different steps so on and so forth if you want to simplify it okay okay i'm just saying there's a very good body of understanding what happens to lactate in the metabolism right to simplify glycolysis produces lactate okay and then this lactate basically enters

20:42  the mitochondria it enters the aerobic metabolism simplified speaking as a fuel okay so on other words if you want to use start here on the top glucose exogenous glucose glycogen whatsoever as a fuel as an energy source then we're going to come back to that then it goes through glycolysis and what comes out as lactate and then this lactate is actually used in the mitochondria okay so that is very well understood these days the guru of lactate mr uh george brooks you know here's one of the uh later publication describes it and this even more

21:26  simplified image pretty nicely that the lactate sits between it is a link between the glycolytic metabolism and the oxidative metabolism so the aerobic metabolism and this is of outmost importance to understand that okay and i'm going to explain why now in the next slides the next five to ten minutes why that is so important and how we can use it also in exercise physiology successfully okay and what is so useful or what is so important is that the glycolytic system here so here on this side the green one

22:08  the glycolytic metabolism that produces the lactate out of glucose or glycogen

22:16  and the oxidative metabolism which uses this lactate as a fuel during exercise they show different behavior what do i mean by that so if you look at those two systems at a function of exercise intensity and i'm using exercise intensity here with vo2 okay so i'm not using power or speed because there's some good data where you know um you can drum it all down to vo2 okay so again one of the most famous or most important one here is this one again from bruce obviously which looks at lactate oxidation rates on the y-axis

22:57  a r-ox okay so x oxidation rates of lactate um as a function of oxygen uptake and what they found and i had to quote somewhere else is that up to approximately 75 percent vo2 max is totally or pretty linear and overall it's almost linear so the oxidation of lactate is almost linear to oxygen uptake i mean i always say a little bit sorry disrespectful that's not a big surprise because as far as we know if you want to oxidize something in this universe you need oxygen this is where the name oxidation comes from and if you want

23:36  to oxidize more you need more oxygen um this is why we have you know interturbers and and and cooling systems and cars and so on because it allows us to get in more oxygen and burn more and produce more power so no surprise that there's a relationship between oxygen uptake and how much lactate can be oxidized can be cleared as a substrate and that's pretty much linear

24:05  the production however looks much different so this here is only the lactate production rate again as a function of vo2 on the x-axis so it's better to compare and now this production shows a similar behavior that you are used to that you know that we know from lactate concentration curves because it's exponential the difference to lactate concentration curves you can see it's exponential it's steadily increasing constantly increasing even at the low intensities however in the lactate curve sometimes you don't see it right you see it's either stable or even decreasing okay which again this is because it's concentration

24:45  but what we're looking at here is basically lactate production rate so we have lactate oxidation combustion rate on the left and lactate production rate on the right and those look significantly different and we come back to that why this is so important but the conclusion is the conclusion that you know that is so important to understand is that the lactate concentrations that you measure for example in your lactate profile curve incremental test the concentration that you measure is mathematically speaking if you leave out like you know just commented here by chris the time it takes until you see it in

25:30  the blood or the dilution space because of body composition if you leave that out if you just look at the concentration isolated so to speak or a little bit simplified if that's okay then the concentration that you measure is the result of a certain lactate production obviously it has to come from somewhere that stuff minus whatever has been combusted whatever has been oxidized during exercise in the working muscle okay so i'm not talking about lactate this is in the blood and going in other cells of course

26:01  that as well but the main combustion of lactate actually happens in the working muscle okay and we can talk about mcts and it's going from more glycolytic fibers to the more aerobic ones that all plays a party obviously okay so the concentration like in this example here you know will be relatively high or will be increasing because in our on our example here what i've currently shown on the screen the production is much much higher than the combustion and therefore lactate would accumulate or you could have what i just mentioned what you sometimes see in a step test it's a low intensities

26:35  there's a production is much lower than the combustion and then lactate would decrease

26:40  okay and again i gave you two more papers if you still feel like oh that's you know a little bit new to me or why isn't it not pyruvate because my biochemistry textbook tells me pyruvate is the end product of glycolysis no the equilibrium of the ldh reaction the one that we looked before that catalyzes pyruvate to lactate under physiological in vivo conditions the equilibrium constant of this enzymatic reaction is almost entirely on the lactate side 95 to 98 or 99 of all glucose molecules become lactate even under aerobic

27:21  conditions even at very low intensity okay so again your lactate concentration that you measure is the product the result of these two things of the lactate production and select a combustion and therefore that changes or that has to change how we view a lactate profile curve because that basically means that higher production a higher glycolytic activity pulls our lactate profile curve to the left like we've seen this our 100 meter sprinters already 50 years ago right i just showed you the lactate curves there 800 meters 50 meters went to the left

28:07  so higher glycolytic activity more lactate production pulls the curve to the left obviously because more is produced and on the other hand of course more lactate oxidation so more aerobic metabolism more aerobic activity more oxygen uptake again the paper from bruce and donovan 1983 means you can oxidize more lactate and when you can oxidize more lactate the curve shifts to the right because the concentration is lower okay so that means that we need to understand that the lactate concentration that we measure and therefore our lactate profile curve is an outcome it is a result of something okay and i appreciate you're

28:54  still with me here because i would like to show you a better framework that creates this outcome okay so your lactate concentration and therefore i put mlss so maximum lactate steady state also in the title here because we use lactate concentration right people use lactate concentration to get an mlss and then get training zones and look for improved performance because of right shift and so on and so forth okay so the lactate concentration at mlss is the outcome and let me walk you through this how this outcome is created

29:33  okay so you or we inject so to speak some running speed or some cycling speed if you wish in this incremental test scenario into an athlete okay and then based on running economy or because i choose cycling speed aerodynamics you know that translates into an energy demand obviously right it's a mechanical power or metabolic power mechanical power translate into some kind of energy demand for example based on the running economy and this energy demand has to be met somehow and i simplified it you're looking at steady state conditions so

30:11  i'm you know not looking at creating phosphate which is used for the time it takes to adapt to a new intensity so in almost steady state conditions this energy demand can be covered by two energetic system which is our glycolytic flux or it can cover by oxygen uptake or should have been maybe put me more precisely and said aerobic flux so please forgive me here okay so these two systems need to cover the energy demand so again at least runs a certain speed based on whatever the running economy is which i didn't even touch on because it always of

30:47  course also shifts the lactate curve left or right and running based on the translation so to speak from speed into energy demand this demand has to be covered somehow by glycolytic or by aerobic metabolism and how much is covered by which system is strongly linked how strong one system is there's nice studies which shows that for example higher vo2 max means higher oxygen uptake also in sub-maximal condition which is of course partly beta oxidation but it's also because the energy supply shifts more to the aerobic side okay

31:26  so the stronger so to speak the aerobic system is the more energy will be supplied by the euro system and vice versa for the glycolytic but however at the end you have those two systems and both contribute to a certain extent to cover this energy demand and in order to do this they need some substrate so these two combined and this i didn't touch on this it's a whole other topic we can go more into detail on that also lactate is one of the main drivers that influences via pdh for example how much fat would

32:00  actually be burned okay so simplified speaking to not go too much into rabbit hole how much of this energy comes from glycolytic and oxygen uptake covers the total energy demand and in order to cover that both fat and carbohydrates are used to some percentage and this again depends for example on the glycolytic flux because as you just learned lactate is the end product of glycolysis it can only come from glucose or glycogen so every lactate has been a glucose or glycogen before so therefore your lactate production your

32:37  glycolytic flux is proportional to carbohydrate combustion okay and then of course the glycolytic flux makes the lactate production and the oxygen uptake makes a lactate clearance that's what we already discussed right brooks again uh oxygen uptake linear relationship to lactate clearance and then those two make your lactate concentration or maximum lactate steady state so this is so to speak the causational relationship a little bit simplified if you're not looking at the kinetics how long it takes so vo2 to go up in a step test but just in general to generally understand how we get from a certain intensity

33:25  running speed or cycling speed translating this into an energy demand covered by aerobic anaerobic flux therefore resulting in lactate production and a certain lactate clearance based on the vo2 based on the glycolytic activity this will make your lactate concentration of course including body composition and stuff okay glycolytic activity so this means the lactate concentration and the mls is an outcome of the assessment and what most of us are guilty for is using that outcome as a cause what do i mean with that this performance marker lactate at a certain intensity after a certain time or especially anaerobic

34:18  threshold mlss represents the combined outcome of these multiple physiological processes and therefore it sorry i'm stealing the pot here a little bit i know it simply cannot serve as a training control because looking at the mlss alone or lactate concentration alone doesn't provide you any information why and how it is created so what i'm saying is if you just look at this red lactate concentration and you don't know everything below here except maybe at the very beginning the running speed or cycling speed or cycling power output right so you maybe just know the first piece and the last piece

35:04  then you just have an outcome you don't have the information uh you know how this actually evolved and how it has been created and therefore we cannot use it as a training control that's my point there's no and i'm going to explain now why and make make make make make make the point here why you cannot do that here's another example okay it's maybe it's a little bit stupid but hear me out think about temperature in your house the temperature in the room the temperature in the room i'm standing

35:36  in here right now is a result of a certain you know radiation from the sun heating being on insulation outdoor temperature and so on and so forth and the temperature in here is the result of all of that the temperature and it can go up just because the sun would come through the window which unfortunately doesn't happen a lot over here in switzerland at this time of the year um this can bring up the temperature and if i now open the window temperature can go down and whatsoever but i can create the same temperature

36:11  here in the room for example just by more sunlight or by more heat heating or by better insulation okay okay and so if i just look at the temperature it tells me nothing how good my house is insulated how good the windows you know insulation is how much sun exposure i have so on and so forth okay i'm going to give you some more examples

36:39  and i go to a doctor because i have fever and the doctor is not treating the fever but the doctor is treating the underlying causes for that in inflammation bacteria with antibiotics whatsoever okay and since the fever is used as an indicator on how well this treatment works so if you translate it into sports science and into coaching this means we need to think about running economy you need to see what aerodynamics about substrate utilization about v02 max vlmx and then mlss and lactate concentration can be one marker to understand how this worked but we cannot use the

37:25  marker itself to prescribe it here's another one if you fly to your next vacation right uh the pilot maintains a certain attitude and it's not that it's not maintaining it by just maintaining it and just looking at it it's the pilots are maintaining the attitude by looking at something like pitch and speed and and these kind of things and then altitude is the result but it's not the course

37:56  my main one here however is this one my my my my most favorite example okay when you still have a car is a combustion engine the manufacturers maybe hopefully try to make fuel consumption lower make it more efficient but in order to do that they don't look at the fuel consumption it's the outcome they look at the end to understand the effect it had but what they think about what they work for it's drivetrain efficiency is the engine is surveyed is the aerodynamics rollering assistance of the tire

38:32  this all pays into the fuel consumption and then the fuel consumption is something to look at the end how it worked but it doesn't tell you what to do hope this makes sense looking at the fuel consumption say my car takes you know whatever 10 liters for 100 kilometers that's how you express it here in in europe or any whatever miles per gallon looking at this tells you nothing about how to improve it right you need to understand how big is the car how big is the engine to say oh yeah no no surprise it's super big cars this is

39:07  why it needs so much fuel okay so the question we should ask ourselves is why do we think we should control training by the outcome meaning mlss and lactate when they just describe how this whole system ended up and not what caused it and now after i've bashed so to speak 35 minutes on um um you know i used 35 minutes to explain not to do it let me explain you how you can use this system to do something different and then again i'm i'm sorry uh side note housekeeping i appreciate you sent comments and questions please do that i will

39:51  not read them and answer them during this webinar because it kind of disturbs the flow but the questions that you write might trigger a sword and someone else and then it's you know can evolve in some great questions i will come back to those after the webinar okay um so please keep doing that okay so what can we do so this is the whole framework okay this is the whole framework and now what is actually possible is and i'm not saying because i already see the question i'm not saying

40:23  you shouldn't measure lactate i'm just saying you should use it in a different way okay so the lactate concentration okay in the first step is the result of the production and the clearance so you have your lactate curve is whatever protocol whatever okay and then

40:43  what is actually possible is to find out what is the lactate production is a lactate clearance which actually resulted into in that concentration so you see these red arrows what i'm trying to say is that if mathematically lactate clearance and production make concentration then you can just reverse this calculation and do it the opposite way around and the reason why it's possible to do that is because of the different kinetics because if you know one system behaves linear or almost linear and one system behaves exponential and you do have different measurements at different intensities like you normally do have in any

41:29  incremental grade exercise tests this means that it's possible to calculate what was actually the lactate production rate and what's what was actually the lactate clearance rate that created this concentration

41:47  and now you already have at a first view on what is the cause for your lactate concentration okay and i want you to remember these curves this exponential curves for the production and the linear one for the consumption or oxidation okay so here's how this looks like here's a lactate curve okay and again the lactate concentration can be reverse engineered flipping around the same mathematical relationship so to speak flipping it back to and calculate the lactate combustion rate which is now here's a blue line you can see

42:24  it's almost linear it's tilting off a little bit and the lactate production rate and now one thing that happens here i'm trying to now step by step bring it back to a practical application if you don't mind is that you can determine a threshold if you're still interested in a maximum lactate steady state you can determine that without being dependent on the protocol and four millimoles or first increase plus something or d max or whatsoever because now per definition mechanical mechanistic definition in terms of a cause the thresholds the mlss should be the intersection point where production

43:09  matches combustion so it should be at this point and literature shows us that it is as a high correlation between the power output at this intersection and the actual maximum lactate steady state state is a steady state using gold standard 30 minutes constant loads whatsoever tests okay

43:34  there's a kind of a strong indicator that the calculated production and clearance is actually correct because if you look at this point it matches the mlss intensity but you can take it a step further you can take it a step further you know as i mentioned before gladden at al 2005 the end product of glycolysis is lactate so if you know the lactate production it's actually quite interesting i find if you know the lactate production you know the glycolytic flux every lactate production comes with atp comes with energy production depending if you use glucose or glycogen so your rate ratio is a

44:15  little bit different um so lactate is produced in glycolysis so if you know lactate production you know the glycolytic flux and this is as i said influenced by vlamx so you can get vlamx from this great exercise test without the need to do a sprint okay might be interesting what is more from a practical application i think interesting is this part here about the substrate utilizations so the substrate utilizations again lactate is produced as we've seen when we looked at the biochemistry lactate is produced only out of

44:58  glucose or carbohydrates glucose is a six carbon molecule lactate three so one glucose makes three lactate which means if you know if you know your lactate production you know how much carbohydrate has been combusted okay and you know that whatever the energy the substrate demand is whatever is not covered by carbohydrates or lactate needs to come from fat so that means you can also reverse engineer here you can reverse calculate from these two and therefore get you know a fat and carbohydrate combustion rates from your lactate testing again all starting with the lactate concentration

45:43  and another one which is fairly interesting is that the clearance again brooks 1983 the lactate clearance is directly linked to oxygen uptake and the oxygen uptake is directly linked to the vo2 max which means you can get a vo2 max value from the lactate test and again there's also validations on this one showing that the oxygen uptake calculated this lactate only and this is a quite interesting study because i actually did two vo2 max tests one is a three minute oil out and one is a rem test and

46:19  the difference between the two measured vo2 max with a metabolic heart was the difference was bigger than the difference between the vo2 max calculated um to any of the measured vo2 max so highly accurate there as well

46:37  so again trying to say here that having this kind of framework

46:48  because of the literature and the knowledge and the data out there it is possible to reverse engineer to calculate based on lactate concentration all the other metrics okay and there's another benefit from it which for me is actually more interesting i would argue than just the number of metrics so it just showed yes now you can get vo2 max vl max fat and carb so on and so forth there's one thing that is even more interesting in my in my mind this is why i wanted to show that

47:20  so what this is a little bit abstract sorry is that it's a mechanistic relationship right so what we are saying there's a mechanistic relationship between vo2 max oxygen uptake and lactate clearance this is what the literature tells us so now we can use this relationship okay and predict how for example a higher view to max or a change in running economy a change in any of those metrics here any of those factors body composition right how one change in any of these metrics influences our performance and i i wanted to show that how this works so i start here this is you know lactate curves it's

48:07  two lactate curves because it's two different durations so again if you have different durations you need to um you end up with two different you end up with this different lactate lactate curves okay so this is an existing lactate curve kind of thing and you will see i'm just going to show the other graph so this is just the graphs we just looked at lactate combustion and production fat and carbohydrates vo2 max so on and so forth in this case vo2 max was about uh 52 right okay so now

48:41  what i'm doing here now i changed the vo2 max to 60 and again because it's a mechanistic relationship you can view it as having like a digital twin or digital avatar of your own physiology or the physiology of the athlete you work with and now you can tweak this and what i just did i tweaked that and taking it from a vo2 max of about 52 to vo2 max of 60 and then uh sorry and then see what this does to z uh what it does to whatever metric you're interested in so what would we what would we expect

49:24  happens if you have a higher if you have a higher view to max okay then as i just explained your oxygen uptake will be higher you will the energy demand will be covered more by the aerobic system simplified speaking because it's stronger that's what you see here okay here's a blue line is it's a running test the blue line is the running economy so it's the energy demand based on speed or pace half and x-axis and the light blue one is how much is covered aerobically and the dashed line is now

49:55  for the higher view too so you can see view to max is higher because view to max is higher again what you find in the literature is that also in sub-maximal condition oxygen uptake is a little bit higher okay now what happens when oxygen uptake is a little bit higher you can see here this means that the lactate clearance is higher okay and the other effect is now because more energy is covered by the aerobic system less has to be covered by the glycolytic system which means dash red line the lactate production

50:27  is less meaning this intersection point which i just showed you which describes mlss shifts way to the right so this explains you mechanistically cause relationship why higher view to max leads to higher threshold speed okay and then of course if you produce less lactate you have high oxygen uptake it will result also in lower carbohydrate combustion right so red one here is carbohydrates for example in grams per hour it's shifted to the right right less glycolytic flux more oxygen uptake means more fat this is why fat combustion is higher and carbohydrate combustion is lower so you can really

51:12  see the effect of these things because again they are all interconnected again it's like a digital twin or physiological avatar of your athlete and last but not least i know i have a few minutes more i wanted to show you because there was already the question about about training uh what does this mean to your training because before i was kind of renting on like you shouldn't use mlss for training and you know it's the outcome it's not a cause so i brought you three examples here of training zones so now because you

51:52  don't only have lactate concentrations but you also have for example carburetor combustion or fat combustion of yield to max it's not possible obviously to create a training zone specifically for the system you're interested in so one example here my zone number one up here would be i created a training zone which is 100 of my fat max so the highest so the fat max means intensity running speed or power output or whatever um the intensity at which mfo maximum fat oxidation is highest highest this is now obviously possible i can create a training zone like this

52:32  or if i'm more interested for example in 70.3 iron man or fueling strategies or training the gut whatever reason you might have i can argue and say okay i want to define a training zone at the intensity at which i burn 90 grams of carbohydrates because again this might be the zone for a race and actually a publication that shows that this intensity predicts best long distance triathlon performance quite interesting we have a website um so you can use that or for example you might be familiar with the runner start data that shows higher percentage at of v02 max leads to better training

53:15  adaptation of the aerobic system you can design a training zone based on v02 max so here if i say for example 95 percent of v02 max power and specifically because that's obviously not steady state continuous training i define that as the uh training zone for and this is running uh for 1000 meter running so 1000 meter running i basically ask the question spit out give me the speed of 95 percent v02 max power in a 1000 meter interval okay and then i can ask the question additionally to how to speak how to

53:59  define a training zone i can ask the question uh i want to know what's going on in the metabolism and there's a whole list i can select from that i can select i'm going to show you an example how it looks i can select for example for the let's say for the fat max uh intensity i can ask what is elected concentration because somebody said oh well how do i control training yeah you can still use lactate to control for example if you're in the right zone so you can ask now what is my lactate concentration in steady state

54:31  at fat max what is my lactate concentration after for example this 1000 meter v02 max interval okay the difference is the intensity is now determined based on vo2 max and not based on an extrapolation of mlss or something and this is then how it looks so i only asked you to look at the upper one so this is like the training zone so you have now the target speed or this case this case the pace and this was our fat max zone up here so for example in this athletes is the lactate concentration of 1.1 again based on the

55:05  physiology it could be another athlete a different lactate concentration in this athlete it was 68 percent of anaerobic threshold or 90 percent of so-called lto1 and then the 90 grams carbohydrate again in this athletes that's just an example the 90 grams of carbohydrate 65 percent vo2 max but the lactate concentration of 1.5 and at 80 percent of mlss and then i have for example the 1000 meter uh vo2 max interval here uh vo2 max interval here and i was interested in what is the percentage utilization of vlmx because we know that the percentage utilization of vlmx is an indicator

55:50  if it will you know increase or decrease by training because interval training of course can increase your glycolytic capacity so it can increase vlmx so that's something um people people look for uh and then for control uh it's calculating the lactate concentration after 1000 meters so taking into account the lactate kinetics after 1000 meters at this 95 percent vo2 max power and in case you're interested for example swimming coaches are interested in that kind of stuff uh you can see what is the energetic contribution so how much of the energy is derived from anaerobic sources versus aerobic sources again for

56:28  this um um for this specific interval so i know at the end i was maybe a little bit fast trying to sprint through things i hope i was able to uh give you an idea or an understanding um how the lactate concentration is created as a result of different processes um beside the kinetics and besides the body composition primarily of course production and clearance and how this production and clearance is based on the available literature um linked to glycolytic flux and oxygen uptake like i've shown here and this of course

57:21  this is in combination informs the substrate utilization and how this is all linking back then or coming down from the from the running uh from the running speed already get good credentials from william thanks a lot much appreciated before i start reading your questions so please bring more questions not only um good feedback give me also critics and hard questions um i wanted to share this one uh we are back doing camps uh camps and workshops we now have a two-day workshops on performance testing and um yeah theory behind it so

57:58  practical and so you know if you have our i would almost say legendary four-day camps where we talk more about training okay so if you if you're more interested in the diagnostics piece then the two-day camp might be better if you want to do something like this just saying right um if you really want to have a framework for how to use physiological data in coaching uh not based on philosophies just really based on science and one of the four-day camps so here's a qr code uh several ones we do them together with usa triathlon

58:33  the us and all over europe um so check this out but later because now i want really to hear your to your questions i'm going into the chat here and um um yeah and going to going to look at these things here for you okay um chris starting with chris ones from like uh 45 minutes ago yes five minutes it's kind of the benchmark or was kind of the benchmark um we we model we calculate the kinetics and we are happy to do this with three minutes i would not be happy to do it with less than three minutes um recently

59:12  especially in belgium eight minute steps has become quite popular and then even doing lactate after four and after eight but that obviously only works in cycling so um just reading through so bear with me while i'm reading and again i need to look to the other screen um okay from anton this was more like a remarks and a question for me um fabian forgive me but do people actually use lactate reading as a main variable to prescribe time yes yes and i'm not saying you cannot do that i think if you really understand that you know like christos mentioned this is different for

1:00:02  three minutes and five minutes you can do that but treat it as an outcome right don't treat it as i'm better because my lactate concentration is lower or higher or whatsoever yes yes people do prescribe training based on lactate depending on your sport and country and philosophy quite a lot um um okay

1:00:33  material is not a problem if you to make this too high you cannot supply enough carbs because they burn too much okay um okay anton one quick question here about the inverse problem cited

1:00:50  uh great question so anton's question is when we do reverse engineer it's a very technical question so i hope some of you appreciate if you don't then bear with me to find a more practical question okay um how do we check how do we know that if this reverse engineering is you know accurate or it's not uncertain um so we do have different measures for that um we use for example uh sum of squared errors to see how good the fitting is uh we do have other metrics in the mathematical algorithms that we use we lately

1:01:30  we have even been able to incorporate um error functions so error functions of the devices and actually able to calculate the um to calculate the range so you know um it's not it's not live yet but we actually have a version which not only gives you a vautomax but gives you the certainty range of that vautomax so you have a you can make an informed decision you know if this is good enough or not and if it's not so if it's outside gold standard range then it flex so yes if you would try to

1:02:05  process data and inside and the algorithm sees to speak in the back end that it's bad that it does not converge then you would get a warning it would flag alexandra can we use standard step test inside yes you can uh any step test will do we can even change the step durations during the test pause durations whatsoever um it's possible okay stephanie 20 seconds sprint so that goes back to pbd test um

1:02:52  okay so stephanie is basically saying that she has the impression that sometimes people with a high sprint power get underestimated lt1 and lt2 values um that of course could be the case and you ask for the reasons a reason could be if if that is a cause um then a reason could be a wrong body composition if one thing another source of error is um power meter accuracy especially in the sprint a lot of the power meters have issues with accuracy at the high power output but i don't want to you know x takes

1:03:27  us as a cues or bash it in most cases however i would tend to look more into into the longer efforts which are used to get a vo2 max um because the effect of those on the uh on something like lt1 lt2 or mlss uh is is is is much much bigger so i would likely look into this direction here a little bit more if you have a specific questions about some specific test cases i would um really recommend or ask you to please please reach out to us and send the data which you have questions about to help desk at inside

1:04:12  and then we can discuss and give you feedback uh fabian has a nice question because it's a kind of philosophical question he says if i understand you correctly isn't that main purpose to reverse engineer lt readings um i like your wording i like your question fabian i would say not directly as the main purpose um the main purpose really is to to help people to understand performance better um so it doesn't have necessary to be lactate or just you just heard from stephanie she's using like sprint tests and stuff um but yes if if you are able of

1:04:59  if we are able to understand causation relationships in performance and sorry i cannot bite my tongue here i'm using the recent example of christian blumenfeld who we have data from um so if we can get to the point where things don't sit in isolation okay but where we see the interconnections of saying so where we cannot have a vo2 max of 100 with a vco2 of 80 or 90 and a power output which would indicate uh gross efficiency half of what you find in the literature you know what i mean that is not consistent that is not adding up

1:05:45  so if you want to go down this ray and okay what is the purpose the purpose is to be able to give you or coaches and athletes as many as possible quantitatively correct interactions relationships between all different metrics that influence performance if it's running economy swimming economy vlmx substrate utilization whatever it is okay whatever whatever helps you to understand what limits performance what limits the performance of an athlete is it's a vo2 max is it's a running economy is it's a body composition body fat so you can pinpoint that and then go in and say yes this is the kind of training for this guy i i don't

1:06:34  care about vo2 max vlmx substrate because it's just aerodynamics or just running economy or whatsoever being able to quantify that being able to understand where you get the most bang for the buck so to speak where you have the best outcome in terms of the training that you invest yes that is so to speak the main purpose give me tross i want to ask you also something right in clearance what happens in the mitochondria and we use lactate as an energy subset yes we use lactate basically as energy substrate it's basically how

1:07:14  lactate enters the uh how how so to speak so if you think about burning carbohydrates as a fuel in the aerobic metabolism you actually don't burn carbohydrates the carbohydrates first become lactate and then simplified speaking the lactate gets burned you could argue it gets back to pyruvate and at the end it gets acetylco a and then it enters a krebs cycle um simplified speaking this is the fate of lactate so lactate enters mitochondria directly and via pyruvate uh via acetylco a as a fuel

1:07:53  ! Antone a lot of great questions here um where it's heading real-time lactate monitoring um yeah i mean if you tested it already two years ago we had a study with that um it's not the same it's not in blood it's an interstitial fluid the kinetics are much more different it's real time the real time sending data but the data you get reflect what happened 20 minutes ago so it's not that easy um so yeah wide open discussion to where where it's heading um continuous lactate could be one part of it but it's not actually there i think

1:08:39  uh

1:08:45  the next one giving that body is a dynamic system lactate systems particular what is the effect of ignoring the dynamics and using static equilibrium values i don't understand the question to be honest uh c not harray given that the body is dynamic system what is the effect of ignoring the dynamics and using static you maybe you can rephrase it for me i would love to answer that but i i don't understand what exactly you mean i'm going to switch to the next one in the meantime if you do a virtual test and expect

1:09:17  vo2 to get higher but like really power remains the same how do you set the vlmx yeah then if you if you expect vlmx not to like really power not to change and you said vlmx the same um that can happen i mean you can train them separately however uh of course when you do train you stimulate uh glycolytic and aerobic adaptation to some extent at the same time so it's not necessarily more than the real case that your vlmx chain stays entirely unchanged but in order to understand how an improved oxygen uptake

1:09:53  you know effects performance mlss fat carb combustion you can just do it with cv automax so to speak

1:10:08  brian um um oh just good feedback from brian no question much appreciated thank you um material can i use cortex yes and i does it to convert inside yes of course uh we have people using cortex using cosmate view to master core whatsoever um sure you can use any analyzer you want um and and enter it uh especially helpful in uh what we call speed baseboards so free motion sports like running or swimming the data will be automatically used to calculate running economy and i'm mentioning that because we calculate running economy not as oxygen uptake versus speed

1:10:51  because you know oxygen uptake is higher for example because of beta oxidation and it's lower for example because in the case the energy demand is partly covered by glycolytic flux so you get running economy where vo2 is a part of it and you get individual running economy and therefore you have one more lever one more you know um metric which you can look at to make an informed decision how to improve the performance of the athlete so yes highly recommend using a cortex or whatsoever in those uh free

1:11:25  free motion sports like running and swimming alexei how to start using inside i'm happy to reach out afterwards alexei and get in touch um scott yeah going to i love norway i would like to go to norway it's not a calibration issue scott um what you see there is the 101 vo2 max not a calibration issue it's a systematic issue with the device um with other data which shows exactly the same behavior uh from the same device from the same lab um emra i have two questions one designing view to max intervals once those

1:12:02  meet last at least with high vlmx various experience high lactic concentration and high vlmx percentage utilization at 90 95 percent of your to max so basically high view to max utilization comes with high glycolytic utilization obviously what strategy should be used to improve your to max in this case you need to go lower you need to go lower intensity uh view to max can be improved not only by view to max intervals um but also by threshold intervals by more volume so uh emerald what you should do you should use the training zone builder and set an intensity or interval at which vlmx stays

1:12:39  below 10 percent so um and that gives you the intensity and then you look based for example lactate accumulation rate right there's all these things that you can that you can see there you look how long the athlete can do it so you start with intensity for example eight percent vlmx or nine percent vlmx you get the intensity and then you can see um you know how long the athlete can do it and if it's not going to view to max it is 90 percent vlmx then this is what it is then you need to accumulate more training time to get

1:13:16  the same or get to get to you know the effect of vlmx um and then the second question is when the new algorithm step test protocol is going to be activated good question um likely next week um we have we just called for more beta test and um tested a lot and a lot and a lot um but you can use it already just reach out and we will activate a new account it's it's not a problem uh so feel free um to do that um duncan

1:13:51  does insight have any specific test protocols to get the best results from the data rem test intervals um no not really we try to be as agnostic as possible to the protocols you can either use like emra just are some kind of conventional graded exercise test any step duration between three minutes and eight minutes will do and you can change um the step duration and everything within the protocol it's not a problem uh you can do single efforts you can do whatever one effort in the morning one effort in the evening um it's pretty flexible uh there are some recommendations um you need

1:14:31  at least one all-out effort and you need at least three sub-maximum efforts um but besides that it's super flexible you can do almost whatever you want okay um voittek can you use breast by breast measured vo2 and vco2 values in addition to lactate concentration during incremental stress tests to check for estimation integrity or even improving mls calculation yes as i just mentioned you can um specifically in what i call free motion sports so when you are not fixed to a crank arm or some something it increases accuracy a little bit but a little bit i mean we just had this example from

1:15:13  norway right it's a problem again i don't want to bash vo2 analyzers but the problem with metabolic cards and vo2 analyzers is they are not so expensive because they are the best equipment because it's quite complex equipment so what i'm trying to say here is yes of course you can do that and in some cases it can improve uh the data quality a little bit but there's also the potential that it throws it off because if your vo2 analyzer is off then the data will not match again we flex something like this so if it's

1:15:44  like really a total mismatch uh there's warnings built in so the flag right we try to avoid uh users create non-consistent and non-accurate data um view it this way okay one example to view it if you look at the variability and gross efficiency in cycling for example and i personally would argue if there is even a variability in gross efficiency because on a molecular level it's difficult to explain why there should be differences it could be that the differences in gross efficiency that you see is just the

1:16:22  inaccuracy or measurement error of power and vo2 okay but still if you look at this if you look at the device error measure measurement error of power meters on the let's say for example uh lab ergometer and if you look at the differences in uh expected gross efficiency and cycling and you look at those errors and you combine these errors then depending on the error distribute uh propagation but basically if you now introduce the error from a metabolic card it's most in most cases higher or can be higher

1:16:57  potentially and therefore in these scenarios yes you can still add it but it's not necessary making the calculations better running especially swimming it's a different story um

1:17:13  fabian yes you can put the data straight in uh no problem uh material fabian

1:17:26  one question would dimitri thank you for answer before uh last one could the body use lactate production during exercise in order to clear it more efficiently apart from greater if the body can use lactate production to clear it more efficiently i'm afraid i don't understand um

1:17:47  uh sorry dimitriza i'm not sure i understand tom is asking will insight ever be engineered for athletes utilization from an excess accessibility perspective it's only via coaches um yeah it's a good point something we thought about it a lot and yes it might happen um i don't see it happen with the lactate testing i could see it happen with a non-lactate testing to some extent um but honestly thomas you might have sense from me and from how we communicate and doing like algorithms with error propagation and the scientific studies the accuracy of what we do is uh it's really of

1:18:31  pinnacle importance to us so really trying to avoid that because of not blaming the users but because of bad ux not understanding what to do not understanding the data or just accidentally entering wrong data or non-accurate data and then the algorithm spits out wrong results or not and not high accurate results that's something we are very sensitive for to and obviously this like athletes using it it opens up the floodgates a little bit more so that is currently what's holding us back in stepping into a direct to

1:19:09  athlete kind of thing um we are afraid that we cannot keep quality maybe in some cases and when this is solved or when we are able to solve this from a technical point of view then yes

1:19:28  uh do you have experience with long isometrics uh no honest answer sorry is absolutely no i don't uh and i don't want to make something up um uh shunned yeah so presentation on calculations uh error device device errors yes so we do have an algorithm on device errors um for quite some time we've tested just quite some time we already have a database base where we scanned all the literature with all the device errors and stuff uh it's not live yet basically because we haven't tested with our users

1:20:08  on how to best present the outcome of this error analysis right so a little bit like what is the expectation what is the expectation and i'm happy to super happy to hear thoughts by the way right so you want to chime in here um you know now that you ask me shant and say this is how what i would expect because i've struggled to you know what would you expect when the error is high should be prevent you from going forward should we give you feedback and then what do you do with the

1:20:35  feedback can you identify why the error is higher so the ux perspectives is a little bit an issue we do have this functions uh so we do have a version where you can set which devices you use we have error functions from the literature it applies these error functions so it applies error to your lactate readings to your vo2 ratings to your gps speed power readings and then basically a little bit nerdy stuff what it does instead of calculating one lactate concentration curve it calculates several thousands

1:21:10  with several different combinations of this error and then uses that but again it's not out yet so i'm happy to hear your thoughts on how you would uh like to see the outcome of this error analysis yes jeff what is the best way to balance vo2 versus vlmx for someone like a points racer sprint every 10 laps and recover or crit racer uh good question so um there's not one straightforward answer to that i think you know part of my answer is going to be um higher vlmx is more fun if you have higher vo2 max

1:21:50  because then you have the combustion engine to combust it um it depends but you will for what you describe you will not need a super high sprint vlmx of like 0.8 or something should be good enough to have something like in the mid range like 0.5 the question you should be asking is what you know is there a sprint at the end is is a decisive moment a sprint like a mass sprint or from a big group where sprint power needs to be super high then this would be an argument for a high vlmx for

1:22:26  just accelerating out of the corners if your tech technique is good you don't need a high vlmx for that thanks paul for the kudos uh okay scott and fabian are chatting here uh andreas aero scan yes uh i know aero scan i would say one of the founders of the previous technology was friend or a colleague of mine i haven't talked to him for ages but yes um

1:23:11  so uh yes do i know it in general you can use it yes however my experience with the system is not really great so we had we had users who had two aero scan systems and they ditched both several months after they started with insight because because the data would always flag i mean we have we had data we have aero scan data where you know speed increases by four kilometers per hour on a treadmill test but the oxygen uptake doesn't i don't know if it was just the device i don't have so much experience with that but

1:23:47  um in theory you could be able to use it so again via agnostic you can put what in whatever vo2 data you have but you need to ensure that the vo2 data is correct and uh if you can do this with an aero scan then happy to do that uh marco can you explain one more time how different sizes of one person influence different levels of lactate um so um yeah so the exact numbers was just an example right but the takeaway method marco is that lactate dilutes in water and the more water you have the more dilution

1:24:23  space is and therefore your concentration is lower i have one anecdote i'm i'm sharing uh a few years ago i was doing a demo test with a elite cyclist in arizona in the us and we had this um you know i brought this curve which you see here right there so to explain this curve on the right hand side you have a lactate curve and the dots is the measured data and the line is recalculated so obviously the closer the algorithm can recalculate the same data the better potentially the result is and it was a demo

1:25:00  test so we did a test outdoors and i was i you know i needed to present the results and the fitting wasn't bad i mean it's not like the calculated values for here and the measures were there but it was not super you know it was okay but for demonstration i was a little bit nervous i was not so happy about it um but okay what could i do you know it was just what it is so i presented the data to the athlete it's a coach and i was like yeah you know it's not bad but you know the fitting is not

1:25:31  that great and body weight and we discussed all the data and basically then the athlete came forward a female professional cyclist and she said and i didn't see that i didn't know she said you know what i just gave birth three weeks ago and i still have three kilograms of water stored from labor and from this whole process and giving birth okay i mean i didn't expect her to do a performance test three weeks after giving birth but anyway it's another story but what's interesting is i changed the

1:26:02  water content in the system i added three kilograms of water content and then the data would fit right so what i'm just trying to say is that it is important if you really want to understand what is the total lactate production what is the total glycolytic flux it is super important that you um that you you know you know you have an idea of body composition and you don't have to sweat you know if it's 12 percent body fat or 13 or 14 we don't know anyway right you cannot get it with

1:26:30  this as accuracy but you need to know if you know the body body fat is 10 or 20 or from one test to the other it changed significantly because then it can affect the results because then your water content is different um okay let's see uh to earlier points about all the misinformation with the literature coaches and so-called experts there's an abundance of potential errors and testing which testing equipment is used how the tester takes samples where the samples are derived yellow versus finger there are more athletes

1:27:05  that are self-tested um

1:27:15  yeah okay good feedback tom um yeah again maybe if you can if you want to be a facilitator for those people and give them access to you to your account uh that's something to discuss or if you want maybe at some point we can discuss a beta test so maybe we try it with athletes um it could be interesting so again i'm open to that i'm just very sensitive for uh having the algorithm giving wrong results because of no offense bad ux not because both right ux and education of users like you say how to take like

1:27:53  that samples and so on um ah dimitros i will try to rephrase a bit better why do we need only greater oxidative capacity in order to clear lactate more efficiently since lactate is a fuel and as you said we need greater combustion and then is there another form of combustion in our body apart from the mitochondria and there's a different type of cells a different outcome ah okay now i understand better so no combustion happens in mitochondria simplified speaking um you can just use other mitochondria at other tissue you can turn you know that's what happens right the lactate from the blood is for

1:28:28  example uh transported into the heart the heart muscle loves lactate as a fuel um so you can do that that and then in tissue which is not exercising uh you can also build it back to glycogen so you can reverse it as well and use it to build up energy stores again however under load under exercise this this is very very small

1:28:56  cindy how much background and exercise physiology would be sufficient for a camp that's the first part of your question the answer is zero um yes the answer is zero some feedback from one guy here in the webinar today jeff was that you do have e-learning courses and jeff gave us the feedback that he used the e-learning courses to prepare the camps so you send you anybody else if you want to come to a camp and you a little bit afraid we're not sure if it's going to be too high level no it's not going to be too high

1:29:27  high level there's a first thing but if you want to prepare happy to give you free access to our e-learning platform so you can prepare and then you can really come up to speed

1:29:38  um frank do you have any experience in how information about reduced breathing with some respiration tool and the lactate production i do have experience with the tool but not with the effect on lactate production i use it in time trials and others but not for lactate production

1:29:57  uh andreas i don't know this system you leader i said is that the small one like the fitness studio stuff um um yeah i don't know if it's this one uh university leipzig i think i don't know it um okay um um vasilio says a recording you can get the recording afterwards um is it better to put vo2 worker at the end of zone 2 rights no not necessarily can it depends on what you try to achieve by the training i would not say yes in general okay wow okay this was one and a half hours um didn't expect that

1:30:45  um thanks for all the great feedback and all the great questions much much appreciated um again you can get the recordings afterwards check out the camps would be great to see some of you guys over there it's a great experience um feedback is i mean seriously i don't want to market it here but feedback has been awesome talk to anyone who has been there look at some of the videos videos it it is really a cool thing um thanks again for everyone who had questions reach out um

1:31:22  book a demo contact us tom contact us for using it with athletes whatever okay um we are available so don't be afraid to reach out thanks a lot have a great evening uh uh thanks jeff for the feedback jeff was in the camp in park city i think um yeah thanks for the feedback if you have anything else uh reach out after this webinar and stay tuned it's a lot of new stuff coming out um have a great evening have a great day cheers bye bye